I realize that sending a message to women should be of secondary importance; (the primary being finding peace and fulfillment in going your own way). But really, does being addicted to a woman constitute freedom or independence? That’s a contradiction in terms. Are we going to say like addicts do, that I can quit anytime? I think it’s time for the MGTOW movement to get real. Be strong… you can live without the blue pill.

—– for what it’s worth —–

1. PUA MGTOW (sleep as many women as you can)
2. Relationship MGTOW ( no marriage maybe no kids)
3. Don’t date or have sex with women, you can interact with women. That doesn’t mean he’s gay because there’s always chance of false rape. This the safest.

There could be others but I’m not aware of them.

I think that it would be entirely possible to test oneself — hit it and quit it, as they say — to understand the extent to which one’s personal freedom has been compromised or has remained intact in the wake of involvement with a woman.

Still… while I can see that on one level, another part of says… ok… we’re going to prove to women that men are pigs by using them.

I guess for me… I don’t want to be hurt, subjugated or used by women. I don’t want to have anything to do with them at all. But, to be consistent, and honorable, I shouldn’t want to do any of those things to them either.

Men have not only lost freedom and independence, but honor and dignity as well.

How can you be going your own way, if you are still involved with women(?)

It’s empirically unrealistic to not be involved with women – if not impossible. 51% of people are women. That means even if you DONT want to associate (or meet) a woman, you are MORE LIKELY to interact with women. Women are also extremely horny creatures. And it’s a fact that showing NO interest in them actually has the reverse effect and will even heighten her desire (or attraction) even more. If you don’t want a woman around, (and even come right out and tell them so!) they will make more of an effort to infiltrate your life. It’s remarkable really.

Many MGTOW have a “sex if it’s free” attitude and “who cares?” if it’s not. They (we) can take it or leave it. In an environment where sex (without commitment) is more available than ever and women have more sexual partners than men, it would follow that MGTOW enjoy some of it. No guilt by association is required, because sex is the entire biological point between men and women. There is no need for any man to apologize for this. It is biological destiny.

“Own” is the key word in the phrase. Your OWN way. You started out by calling it a “movement”. And while it has (and will have) a profound and noticable cultural effect, it’s not really a movement, but rather a lifestyle choice that varies from individual to individual and HE outlines this on his own terms. “Ghosting” is also in our glossary and some MGTOW go “ghost” while living off the grid… while others are fully functioning citizens living downtown, with regular jobs but refuse to let women into their homes and personal lives.

The degree of MGTOW is vast and very different for each.

It doesn’t mean plenty of sex isn’t going on. Sex is the entire biological point between men and women. Living together, hand holding, marriage contracts and silly valentine’s day romantic stunts and such bulls~~~ is not. The human race will continue without all the crap women want on top of sex. And their sexuality is the reason why. Sexual abstinence may be YOUR way, and you can be sure there are plenty of MGTOW who understand and empathize WHY. Maybe that’s the core ingredient for you. But the reasons for sexual abstinence can vary greatly too…… from refusing to contract a social disease because 80% (4 out of 5) of sexually active American women have contracted some kind before the age of 21….. to refusing to have a kid, or avoiding a possible false “rape” charge. The reasons are perfectly understandable whatever yours may be. Some MGTOW also abstain involuntarily, and that list of reasons is long too. But even they are not necessarily virgins.

But really, does being addicted to a woman constitute freedom or independence?

No it doesn’t actually. NOT being addicted to women constitutes freedom and independence. A take it or leave it attitude is all that’s required. PUAs are actually more “addicted to women” and there is more on that for you below.

I think it’s time for the MGTOW movement to get real.

It is VERY real as the resounding plight for men to return to the plantation is accelerating at an epic pace, and you can read about it the countless articles published by women entitled “where have all the men gone”?.

I guess for me… I don’t want to be hurt, subjugated or used by women. I don’t want to have anything to do with them at all. But, to be consistent, and honorable, I shouldn’t want to do any of those things to them either.

That’s very noble of you. But it may surprise you that you may be confusing MGTOW with PUA’s. You must also realize and accept that consensual sex doesn’t happen unless a woman wants it to. The hit-it-and-quit-it accusation against men fails in light of the fact that women now have more sexual partners than men. So who are the hitters and quitters now?

You are much more honorable than women are, and extending them the courtesy they do not extend to you. More importantly, she may even come home and toss you a baby and say “here, this is yours” — when it isn’t. Even when a man hits-it-and-quits-it, he’s never going to force her into motherhood and 216 monthly payments. But there is an entire population of men out there unknowingly fathering children that are not theirs. Some men are even in prison – right now – after being ordered to pay child support for children that are not theirs. A man who hits it and quits it doesn’t even come close to that kind of horror.

What does ‘PUA’ stand for?

PUA means “pick up artist”… or those who practice “game” as a learned or natural male behavior. They study and adopt the behavioral traits of the “alpha” male (even though they may not be) in attempting to heighten female attraction and to get western sluts to open their legs. Common MGTOW & Manosphere terminology (including PUA) can be found on our glossary of terminology page.

Noteworthy PUA sites (random off the top) include Chateau Heartiste and Return of Kings Although ROK also many MGTOW elements and participants. You may also be interested in the opposite anti-PUA perspective from MGTOW vlogger Barbarossa in his excellent video on “Deconstructing Game”

So what you’re saying there’s some overlap?

( There is a certain and very real truth to this, which makes it all the more appealing. )

But, it is culturally force-fed to men that getting laid is a sign of “success”… and NOT getting laid makes him a “loser”. Any man can seen this everywhere in examples from Elliot Roger to women who perpetuate this nonsense themselves – with comments like “you’re just mad because you can’t get laid”, and “you probably don’t get laid very much” – simply because he typed something she didn’t like.

That’s what makes it so ridiculous. In making these comments, women are implying that access to the damp hole between their legs is the pinnacle of male “success”. She is directly communicating that SEX is the most valuable thing on earth (and the most valuable thing women have), when in reality, she’s effectively saying she doesn’t have anything better to offer. Too many men will believe it and buy into it. Women are counting on this illusion, because nothing is more threatening to female power than a man who isn’t remotely interested in f~~~ing her. She can no longer control or manipulate with vagina when a man arrives at the conclusion that the juice simply isn’t worth the squeeze.

So his brief stop as a PUA is short lived. Because he’s not ACTUALLY the dark-maned “alpha” lion – and will never be. He is merely pretending to be one. And, as Barbarossa points out….. PUA’s attempt to convince you that after studying what women want (as opposed to what they say they want), that “game” isn’t about – and SOLELY about -giving women what they want.

Eventually, he learns giving women what they want is bloody exhausting.
So it’s not entirely unusual that a PUA eventually begins to wear a MGTOW hat. Many of them admit this.

It’s only a matter of time when a man realizes that the pursuit of women never pays…. it only costs.
And he would be more rewarded to pursue other things that pay and give him what HE wants – on HIS terms from now on.

It’s very common for PUA to be a brief stop on the journey to MGTOW. So that’s where you get the “overlap”.

Please understand, I doubt very much my perspective will have any effect or convince anyone because I concede the biological imperatives you refer to are indeed strong, and not only do men not have the self discipline to control themselves, they don’t even see the need to. This results from the acceptance of subjective morality and the abandonment on the part of men of a dignified self image. Just because women tell men that they are obsolete and otherwise worthless doesn’t mean men should adopt that as an excuse for their behavior, implying an acceptance of that image. If… and I say if, mind you… men take the lead and set a good example of honor and dignity; refusing to lower themselves just because the current social atmosphere is toxic, then just maybe some healing can take place. The thing is that men would have to be strong and not revert to dishonorable behavior when women (as you point out) become more insistent and start throwing themselves at men.

anyway —–for what its worth —–