I’m a new member here and very happy that I’ve recently discovered MGTOW.
I’m basically a PUA who was (and sometimes still is) very passionate about game. I’ve studied a lot of game courses and did also Live trainings while practicing for years in the field. Now I have to admit that there are many PUAs out there who put women on a podestal and do everything just to be accepted by them. They seek validation from women. I used to like that in some way, too. I remember how I once drove about 300 miles to meet a cute girl on a date, necletting all my other needs (just to be alone after 20 minutes because she quit the date because of bad weather and mood LOL).
During my game tranining period and my thousands and thousands of approaches something inside of me changed mentally… I became more independent and developed a lot of  self-love/ self-respect. And at the same time I lost a lot of respect for women in general. Many of the behaviours and attittudes I observed from women in the field were very dirty and unethical. For example they are very hypocratic.  Last week I was in a nightclub flirting with 2 women who seemed interested in me… I could have probably made out with one of them and take her home. During our conversations they talked proudly how they are on a  small adventurous holiday enjoying everything and how their husbands paid them everything and stayed at home. As a thank you they seemed to be ready to sleep with another man.  I have experienced a lot of their negative characteristics firsthand and a lot of the stuff I’ve read so far on this site really make sense to me. Before you develop self respect you will be literally blind and unable to see this.

Many experiences hurt me because I used to have a great amount of love for women in general. I’m still resistant to give up game altogether and somehow hope to find a quality women (because not all girls are like that). I’m open minded and don’t want to exlude positive options and outcomes. On the other hand I have to say that your movement is a masterstroke and obvious at the same time. I believe that if the MGTOW movement becomes popular enough it can crash the whole system like a card house. It will take away the power from women- which they proved they don’t really deserve and don’t know how to deal with (probably because they are not designed for it). I respect you for manning up and not being afraid to tell the truth. And you are very smart… while others support the system, wear themselves out and accelerate a downwards spirale… you lean back and enjoy life. How genuis is that?!? There can be a  lot learned from you.

So it would be good to know if it’s possible to continue gaming (and self improvement) and being open minded for quality women while at the same time adopting the MGTOW spirit. Or does this 2 philosophies conflict with each other?

MGTOW is about saying NO to women when they try to control you. It is about ignoring women when they demand access to your utilities as a man, and then offer nothing in return for your sacrifice. It is important to remember that, as a man, your most sought after resource is your TIME. If a woman can get you to invest any amount of your precious time on her without her having to pay you for it (in some such manner), then she has won and you have been suckered.

So, there is nothing incompatible with the two philosophies, as long as you remember to say NO when they ask things of you and don’t intend to reward you for it. Your time is more valuable then her pussy, this is the truth a lot of PUAs should hear.

Maybe it’s a semantic point, because maybe all you mean when you say that is “I use some of the stuff that PUAs teach”. The bottom line is: how much of your identity is wrapped up in trying to get what you want from women? Much less important are the tactics you use to try to achieve your goal…whether that be PUA teachings, sappy mainstream relationship advice, stuff your dad or big brother taught you, or stuff you figured out on your own.

thank you for checking out my post and giving me feedback.

The thing with the time is a real dilemma. I’m studying game (therefore the reference to the term PUA, the game techniques come mainly from PUAs) and it’s alot about learning more effective communication strategies. It’s also about self development and character growth.  You can use game to expand your personality, as a value delivery machine to form the character you like, or you can also use game to sell your current personality in the most appealing way. It doesn’t mean you have to form into a person you don’t like, just to get women. For example if you WANT to become more playfull (which is also attractive to women), than you get yourself a bunch of playfull routines and try them on few hundred women and you eventually become a more humuorus person (the playfull attitude becomes internalized through repitition). The fact that we try our techniques on strangers allows us to sharpen our skills even more, because you get raw uncut feedback.  Right now I’m collecting different concepts / techniques of PUA Gurus (which are meant to attract women) and I use the concepts I feel personaly congruent with (techniques which I would enjoy doing)  and practice them in field. This way I ensure that I stay true to myself while also heading to the direction of being more attractive to women. So if I see a technique which is meant to build high attraction but is also conflicting with my core beliefs I won’t use it. You helped me to understand that’s it not worth it to sacrify your core beliefs just to get women.

Game is multilayered and there are different aspects to it. Anyway it’s very time consuming, because changing behaviours and habits require constant reputation…. there lies the problem. I would say I spent A LOT of time studying and developing my game… if you just do it half- assed it’s not going to work. Even though I use game more to expand my character and develop more effective communication strategies (I’m very outcome independent and don’t care if I get a girl, rather enjoying the process) I can’t deny that I’m in some way ego feeding women. That’s why I feel guilty about it and I wanted to know your opinion. The character I form for example is basically meant to be more appealing to women and women are also the evaluators of our game (At least in the early stages, later we qualify them and decide if we will take things further if she’s worth it).

I have a feel that a  fully trained PUA (or someone who has mastered the concept of game) can be a true MGTOW. He is able to attract women he likes EFFORTLESSLY (=without much  time) and has choice because he has mastered the communication and character development. He doesn’t have to pursue women and he won’t take her s~~~ , women rather want to be a part of his life. He has personal boundaries and a lot of self-respect. This is the goal and vision I have in mind when I train Game. But the reality is that it’s requires a lot of effort on the road and you have to deal with tons of roadblocks on the way. Finding your site was like finding a oasis in the desert.

Kind regards!

It’s SO interesting this came up.
Sit down before you fall down.

You know after I left you my original reply on Sunday, I went out for a lunch and to do some writing. Sitting next to me at the bar, was this guy I struck up a conversation with. We exchanged chit chat, what I do, what he does….. and within about 30 minutes I found out he was very active in the game community. A true (and natural) “PUA”. He even looked the part. It was quite uncanny. He’s not a famous PUA but he definitely rolled with the legends many years ago… and then we talked about how I manage a men’s interest site – MGTOW.com – which I introduced him to.

I showed him the trailers and the article on “Hypergamy” a concept which was inspired by Rollo Tomassi. As he was watching the trailer he said “wow that really hits you below the belt and guts you! you didn’t hold back at all!”. In 2 minutes , he got it. So he started to read the article and said he was experiencing it first hand. He never heard the word “hypergamy” before. We spent a couple of hours going back and forth. Both our minds were blown by running into each other like that.

I told him I have seen PUA Tyler Durden in person walking down the street. He knows him well. And I am very aware of David DeAngelo and I mentioned a few things that I learned from him which I still carry with me today. He knew them too. We laughed. I wasn’t a “fan” but I certainly learned some valuable lessons.

•••••

You are no-doubt aware of the website “Return of Kings”. Well that’s red-pill / men’s interest site which qualifies as a Manosphere site with a PUA and MGTOW spirit. Just as many MGTOW participate there as well, PUA is very commonly a brief stop on the way to MGTOW. It’s virtually unavoidable. The more experience you have with women, the more red pill lessons you learn, and it’s common for a guy to say “f~~~ this s~~~” and eventually make his way here — or at least, find it in his travels — even though he may not be ready to embrace it fully.

Personally, I still interact with (and may even occasionally flirt with) women if the energy is good, fun and positive. If she bounces back and we get a little natural rally going, then it can be fun. But most women today have LOST ALL ABILITY to flirt and interact with men in a fun or meaningful way. They are complete s~~~ at it. Talk about this at Return of Kings, I found A LOT of men agreed with me over there.

GAME HAS VALUE. There is no doubt about it.
But I also agree with DYBBUK (above) completely.

Barbarossa’s video on “deconstructing game” is an excellent video and we actually quote directly from it on our glossary page. He has an excellent understanding of game and what it means in the social matrix as we know it. And he articulates it perfectly.

These days women have lost their luster. They are like playing tennis with a wall, and a man learns very quickly they are simply NOT WORTH IT – not on any level. This makes PUA a common stop on the way to MGTOW. I haven’t ruled out women entirely, but there isn’t one shred of blue pill, white knight in me anymore. That man is dead. And so is the man who used to cross the room to talk to a girl just because she’s good looking. Now I just don’t give a s~~~. The PUA who still maintains getting laid is the number one pursuit in life is totally lost on me (and on most of our members from what I can tell).

I don’t “pursue” them, or “approach”.
But I might call one over. Theres a big difference in attitude right there.

I also use playful humor (exactly as you mention above!).
There is a big difference between “playing games” and playing THE game.
THE game…….. is FUN.

But if a chick is not receptive to it and can’t bounce it back, I leave her there and go my own way.

Please feel free to start a game-related thread or conversation any time you are inspired. I may even start one myself from time to time. But, you should be prepared for few to reply or be willing to engage. The idea of “manning up” and working to make a bang happen is both infuriating and pointless to many MGTOW. For example, we have had a few guys step forward and ask for the best way to approach online dating, but just as many will tell him it’s a complete waste of time and women don’t deserve male attention or pursuits anymore.

As a matter of fact, if you have something to say about “s~~~ tests” we are preparing a big piece on this. Self improvement is very important. And education of any kind is never a waste.

A BIG and sincere welcome to you.
Hope to read more from you.

You have a reasonable attitude towards ‘approaching’ and flirting. It’s inspiring for me!

I found myself asking the question “Is it Worth it?” pretty often.

http://www.wikiwarrior.com/wiki/David_DeAngelo,_Double_Your_Dating

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Eben-Pagan/135028473246104

Even more importantly, he’s a fraud. The reason you keep hearing his name is because is one of the first who made a living out of men competing for access to females – shortly after the cultural shift. Yeah, millions of dollars and the BEST he could do was a mannish bitch with a honking nose who proposed to HIM.

Some teacher of “game” huh?

One day he sent out a mass email saying he was getting married – in California no less. (Why doesn’t he just kill himself?). He publicly withdrew EVERYTHING he was teaching – yes really – and announced that he would now be offering relationship and marriage advice. I virtually threw my head back and LOL’ed. It was so f~~~ing epic.

In an email addressed to him, I called him out as a fraud and a poser, and was glad he never got a f~~~ing dime of my money. He’s a zero integrity piece of s~~~, but I hope he and his transexual wife will be very happy together.

••••••••••

I actually saw a video of David D and this guy below (PUA “Tyler Durden”) was a guest speaker in one of his videos. Yes this is a PUA – pick up artist – who claims to be an authority on women:

Catfish are “experts” at “picking up” what’s on the floor of the lake too.

In a video by David D (and back when he was fat) this zero-charisma Tyler Durden was lecturing an all male audience about body language and stance. Not only was my first thought he sounds like a chipmunk when he talks, but he was doing exactly what he was telling others NOT to do. On display in front of everyone, he was talking about how talking with your arms up by your chest (and folded at the elbow) are a sign of “weakness and insecurity”. And then he went and did it himself. If I had been a paying subscriber, I would have walked out laughing.

I saw this guy by accident when exiting Runyon Canyon Park one day. He had lost a lot of weight. He was coming out of one of the apartment buildings and was talking on his mobile. I recognized his voice immediately, and we were going in the same direction, so I walked behind him for a few blocks. He was dressed in flat “van” type sneakers, cargo shorts and a striped navy jumper. No way in hell is this dude picking any woman up.

I did, though. A cute Russian girl passed him and didn’t give him a second look, but she looked at ME. I thought this was funny. She was wearing a T-shirt that said “love me anyway”. So as she was passing, I said “Love you anyway? OK, If you say so…”. She laughed and we talked for a bit.

So it looks like A MGTOW could teach a PUA a few things.

Now imagine this guy charges a few thousand dollars for a weekend, teaching men how to pick up women. A few thousand dollars!

The PUA community is full of fraudalant people who aren’t able to pick up women for themselves but yet ‘teach’ this stuff to guys who are in a desperate situation. They sell a bunch of courses which are mostly mental masturbation. Or only designed to make money. They rarely deliver results and aren’t able to demonstrate/ confirm the effectiveness of their teachings. There is a ‘guru’ out there who sells a video course (costs about thousand bucks!) which also includes infield footage. In the infield footage he rarely uses the techniques he teaches in the corresponding course. Most of the guys who join the PUA community ultimately fail, it’s a dangerous maelstrom. There is definitively valuable information within the community but you gotta be carefull and wisely to use this information in a helpful way and not to get sucked in too much. I’m really dissapointed about the current status of the PUA Community.